Is God a trinity?: Debate Error CorrectedPosted: June 2, 2017 | |
This should be fairly short post, but I believe this needs to be addressed and corrected.
During the debate my opponent Josh Lovell stated during his cross-examination of me that the word “glory” in John 17:5 was not the same word used for “glory” in John 17:22. I personally believe that this was a mis-statement by Josh based on a prior discussion outside the debate we had regarding God giving his glory to others from Isaiah 42:8. I could be wrong, but either way this statement by Josh is completely incorrect and the text shows it clearly.
For the record, Josh and I stated at 1:34:10 onwards in this audio here:
“So, can I say right now, Father glorify me with the glory I had before the world was, or before I was created because when I die God’s going to glorify me?”
“It’s possible because of John 17:22 “And the glory which you have given me I have given them that they may be one just as we are one” And he’s praying about people in the future who will believe in him”
“Right but that glory, those two glory’s are different words. They are different glory’s. If you look up those two glory’s they are different, they’re referring to two separate types of glories. Those words are different. You can double check me and go into the Greek if you want to.. but the glory that he says here in verse 15 is a different word than “glory” there.
So it’s not “doxa”? Well I can’t ask questions
No, it’s not. I have all my notes here…
Now at this point looking backwards I’m not quite sure why Josh said verse 15 either. Because I never mentioned verse 15. I said John 17 verse 22. Verse 15 doesn’t have the word “glory” in it… but verse 22 does have the word “glory.” Josh stated that these were not the same word in Greek but that is incorrect. Here are the two verses in Greek.
John 17:5 καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦτὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
John 17:22 κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς ἵνα ὦσιν ἓνκαθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν
You can see the word “doxa” is clearly in both of these verses. I’m not sure if my opponent mis-read this or was thinking of the wrong verse because of a prior discussion. I only say it’s possible he was thinking of something else but referenced the wrong verse because he had such a quick answer prepared. The issue is, these are the same word just in a different case. That doesn’t make them a different word… it just makes them a different inflection because of the case in Greek for whom the word “glory” is referring to in the text.
With this in mind I decided to email Josh about a week after our debate to ask him to clarify his position because I did not address this within our debate. Time is just tight in a debate, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and looked it up later. So here is a copy of my email.
After a month I had still not yet received a response. I heard that Josh had made a move and gave him the benefit of time to get a full response back. So I sent Josh another email to remind him of my important question regarding his claim during the debate about a month later
It’s now been over 4 months since our debate and I do not yet have a response from Joshua to correct or clarify this error from his claim about the word “doxa.”
I believe this shows clearly that God does share his glory not only with his Messiah in a pre-existent sense, but also with future believers who will believe on the Messiah and become one with them. Until I get a clarification response I must consider this an unanswered error on the part of my opponent.
And just in case someone was thinking it’s possible Isaiah 42:8 was what my opponent had in mind as a different “glory[doxa]” and God not sharing that “glory”… here’s Isaiah 42:8 in the Septuagint.
Isaiah 42:8 ἐγὼ κύριος ὁ θεός τοῦτό μού ἐστιν τὸ ὄνομα τὴν δόξαν μου ἑτέρῳ οὐ δώσω οὐδὲ τὰς ἀρετάς μου τοῖς γλυπτοῖς
“doxa” is right there in red highlight.
Hopefully my opponent will respond eventually and correct this error on his part.